Ethical vegans: Would you agree to go to a restaurant with people who will buy non-vegan food?

[anon]

Assuming you refuse to buy non-vegan foods on moral grounds...
For me, going to a restaurant with someone who I know will buy non-vegan food is very difficult because I feel I am watching them supporting terrible animal abuse and this very much bothers me although it may not seem so. When they buy a milkshake, I see them supporting the abuse the cow had to go through to produce that milk. When they buy a steak, I see them supporting the abuse of the animal that was killed to produce it etc.
When I'm in a restaurant and this happens, I feel very upset to see this and often a strong aversion for the person if I think they are simply being careless and should know better than to support the abuse of our fellow sentient beings. I find it hard to know what to do or say about it when I'm in such a situation.
Am I right to feel this way? If not, why not? Do you ever feel this way? What should I about it? Thanks
First of all, thanks for all answering . It’s always interesting for me to see your varying opinions even if I don’t agree with all of them. I don’t have the time to respond to each of your comments individually so I will choose a few things which I wanted to respond to:

saraimay75:
“If you want to limit yourself than go ahead but your world will be very small”- Well, I don’t ‘want’ to limit myself; I’d prefer to have a wide social circle…but regardless the size of my ‘world’, I want to do what’s best. You didn’t address my questions...all you did was threaten me with what might happen if I went through with it, regardless of what’s best :/

VeganMom:
Wow that is a big answer. Although I’m about to respond to the things I didn’t agree with, I really do appreciate the time and effort you took to share your view.

“You might come off as snobby and even preachy”- I know, but as long as I’m not doing anything wrong, the misjudgements that may come upon me are not my fault i.e. irrelevan
t.
“Also, if you are that high in an ivory tower, why do you even go to restaurants that aren't vegan?”-
I don’t live in an ivory tower. I’m very much in touch with the reality and I realise that the majority is against me but I also realise that it’s possible for us to significantly reduce the negative impact we have on animals in all sorts of ways. I also realise that I’m far from perfect, but I care and I’m trying. My goal is to lead a life where no one has to suffer for me. My problem is with people who, behind their pretentious warmth, simply don’t care enough to really try and fulfil such a goal.
Now that you mention it, it didn’t actually occur to me when I wrote this question that going to non-vegan restaurants might be bad for the animals, even if I’m only buying vegan stuff, but I guess you’re right that supporting non-vegan companies is something to avoid. I wonder if the same rule applies about going to supermarkets that sell non-vegan stuff…I will look into that furth
er.
“…but I don't go on a moral high ground.”- I don’t wish to be snobby either, but what if I AM being more moral than they are? I may not superior to that person in every way, but I do believe that my choice not to support animal abuse is almost certainly morally superior to their choice to carelessly support animal abuse. I’m not going to pretend that we’re morally equal in that department.
“You've got to accept that different people have different choices”- If you found out that your friends supported child abuse, would you say the same thing? I can accept that people have different opinions but I refuse to accept all actions, especially the action of paying someone to abuse animals for you for no good reason. As actions are often a direct result of opinions, I also think it’s very important to try and make sure that people have the optimum opinion on subjects concerning morality, through education and discussion.
“You can accept that not everybody is going to be just like
you. If everybody was the same, life would be boring”- I’m not suggesting that we suppress our individuality, but I do believe that evil must be eliminated.
“Also, in terms of tolerance and acceptance.... it shows maturity and respect for fellow humans. Did you not become vegan because you care and respect ALL creatures?”.
Yes I became vegan for that reason, and therefore I will protest against those who don’t care and respect all creatures, or to put it better, those who carelessly cause unnecessary harm to any creature, human or animal, because I care for ALL creatures like you said. However, it shows neither maturity nor respect to accept their decision to carelessly support the unnecessary abuse of animals in my opinion, just like it shows neither maturity nor respect to accept their decision to carelessly support the unnecessary abuse of humans. Propaganda will have you believe that it’s maturity and respect but it’s not. We may have the legal right, but we don’t have the moral r
ight to carelessly support the unnecessary abuse of animals.
Anyway, I love your suggestion about having friends over for dinner. I’ve never actually done that and I will defiantly do that soon. I appreciate all your digressions! Don’t be sorry for the length- I love length! (that is NOT a sexual innuendo). It’s very interesting to hear about your family-life and whatnot- it’s nice to see that your diet has served a good example to other members of your family. And food talk is definitely always welcome here.

Ǝviscǝratǝ:
“Unless a restaurant is specifically for Vegans you shouldn't really eat there due to contamination”.
Thanks for telling me and being polite about it! Personally contamination in itself isn’t a big issue for me because I don’t believe eating something that ‘may contain traces of milk’ will necessarily make a difference to the cow, but it’s true that I do want to avoid supporting businesses that support animal abuse AMAP (as much as possible).
Seryph:
“This is the problem with being "ethical" unless you take it to the absolute extremes, you are being a little hypocritical to develop "a strong aversion" to other people.”
Well I do aim to take it to the absolute extremes (although I wouldn’t personally use the word ‘extreme’ because it has connotations with being unreasonable and, in my opinion, earnestly trying to maintain the highest ethics is not an unreasonable thing to do) but just because I’m not there yet doesn’t make me hypocritical, because I really care and I’m trying to get there and I get upset with people who don’t care and try. But thanks for the list in the beginning- it gives me ideas of the other things I can do to reduce the negative impact I have on this world.

Dune:
“You can't control what others choose to eat”.
This isn’t about what they EAT. It’s about what they’re carelessly supporting, and that is animal abuse. It’s not morally acceptable to carelessly support the abuse of anima
ls in my opinion and I don’t think that it’s wrong of me to forcefully demand that they stop.

Scottishguy111:
“Do you feel upset living in a house that animals died to make (land clearance) do you feel sad driving on roads where animals used to live?”
Absolutely. Death and suffering of animals is part of almost every modern system it seems BUT I know it’s possible to significantly reduce the negative impact we have on animals in all sorts of ways, and that’s what I’m aiming to do as much as possible, and not just through vegan means- I’m not “a vegan on selective moral grounds”. My problem is with people who don’t care enough to really TRY and reduce their negative impact on animals.

Shanainka:
“For some reason, I can be in the same room as meat and not collapse”- Very funny.
“Maybe I haven't been vegan long enough?”- Yeah it kicks in after a while lmao.
I really like the way you gave me three options. I was totally gonna give you best answer but then Learners answer came out of
nowhere…maybe next time! Here, have ten kisses instead: x x x x x x x x x x

'Til next time everyone!

[🐰🐝🐷🐮]

You are not wrong,I understand where you're coming from.I occasionally get like that but I've learned to put my feelings aside because I don't want to miss out on get-togethers with my friends and family due to it.

[saraimay75]

If you want to limit yourself than go ahead but your world will be very small.

[David]

You should do what feels comfortable. However, you don't want to isolate yourself from your friends.

Why not go with them to the restaurant? That way, they can see the delicious food that vegans eat. It might change their mind about beans and vegetables.

[VeganMom]

If you refuse to go out with them, you might come off as snobby and even preachy. Not only that, but you might be lonely-- Your friends see that you don't want to go out with them, and they cease inviting you.

Also, if you are that high in an ivory tower, why do you even go to restaurants that aren't vegan? Even if you are not getting even a vegetarian meal, you are still supporting a company that supports things with which you do not agree.

I sometimes think the same way you do. However, the key word is THINK. Sometimes my husband (who is not veg*n) and I joke about it and I think he's been eating too much meat again lately, but I don't go on a moral high ground.

You've got to accept that different people have different choices. One of the reasons why my husband is eating too much meat is because we are living with his parents who think that a meal is not a meal unless it has meat in it. (Except on Fridays. My FIL is a member of the Catholic Church and will still only eat fish or no meat on Fridays.) This is their thinking despite having a vegetarian daughter (who eats a lot of animal products and junk "food") and a vegan daughter-in-law (me).

Keep eating and living the way you do (after getting off of your ivory tower) and you might change the way some people think. As I said, my MIL is very much non-veg. However, she likes to cook and bake and likes to make alternatives for me (and my six- and three-year-olds and even slight variations for her daughter). I used to like her conventional lasagna. After going vegan, she was the one who created the alternative-- Whole wheat noodles, soy crumbles (I buy either Boca or Morningstar Farms-- whichever is cheaper), Daiya mozzarella rice milk cheese, and a vegetable pasta sauce. It's still quite delicious. (Its good to the point that I won't even eat until evening becasue I know I'll have two large helpings and will eat the little bit that doesn't fit into the Tupperware and Corning containers for leftovers.) She's making it for dinner tomorrow and I'm defiantly walking before dinner. I'm digressing.

That's another thing-- Have your friends over for dinner and make familiar meals with vegan ingredients. One of my favorite things to do is make my vegan chocolate cake (with chocolate icing, of course) or my banana chocolate chip cookies, banana bread.... and take it to a pot luck or something. (The cake is actually known as "birthday cake" to my six-year-old as she's had it every year for her birthday except for this year. That's because my husband, trying to be considerate, let her get a bakery cake. He thought I wouldn't be up to making a cake as I was suffering a miscarriage. What he didn't realize was that doing a nice annual ritual with my firstborn would have been healing. I digress.)

You don't like it-- don't go out with them. Don't support businesses that support it. Or, you can accept that not everybody is going to be just like you. If everybody was the same, life would be boring.

ETA One: In terms of changing people's eating habits, I have "taught" my in-laws a few things. They often avoid hydrogenated and partially hydrogenated oils, some corn syrup and HFCS, etc. They are overweight from poor choices and have the health problems that go with it. They also ONLY buy whole grains now, and I think I was an example of that.

ETA: Sorry for the length.
Also, in terms of tolerance and acceptance.... It shows maturity and respect for fellow humans. Did you not become vegan because you care and respect ALL creatures? If my husband and I had not respected our food choices after I became vegan, five years into our marriage, we would have gotten divorced over something petty. Had we divorced over that, we would not have been blessed with our two kids. Our daughter is not veg*n, but the product of a mixed marriage. She drinks soy milk, and eats cheese. In one meal, she can have tofu and meat, or even both of my MIL's lasagnas. When she was younger, my husband made a homemade macaroni and cheese-- Whole wheat macaroni, cheese from the local meat market and soy milk. When she was three, we got her Kraft macaroni and cheese off of a restaurant kids menu. She didn't like it. (She did eat her vegetable side.) We were both pleased with that. We limit junk "food" with both kids to the point that it's a treat and they know it.

[ǝviscǝratǝ]

You could always meet up with them afterwards. Unless a restaurant is specifically for Vegans you shouldn't really eat there due to contamination. Example, soy burger being cooked on same stove as meat.

Yeah it is a minor inconvenience, but caring about animals & the environment is worth it! <3

[soccerfan455]

yes it's very upsetting and I completely understand as we live in a meat-filled anti-vegan society right now! the best thing to do is to NOT preach and be the angry vegan. If they ask about your diet just answer them nicely and lead by EXAMPLE! they will see how healthy and vibrant you are, and will want to do the same!!

[Seryph]

I take it you also only use electricity from renewable sources (including at work and school as well as at home), don't use any plastics at all, only wear clothes that are fair trade and aren't made in sweatshops, don't use cars, motorbikes, scooters, or public transport that uses diesel or petrol, that you only buy books that are printed on responsibly farmed wood, and that all your food is grown locally, organically and picked by you or at least bought at the farmhouse by you after it has been hand picked? Oh and don't forget that the farmer can't use any mechanical field clearing or plowing devices since those will kill any field animals.
I expect the whole of your house and all your belongings are fair trade and none of them are made using anything that could damage the environment or local ecosystems? On top of that they will all be made locally, because again you don't want to pollute the environment by having things transported?

This is the problem with being "ethical" unless you take it to the absolute extremes, you are being a little hypocritical to develop "a strong aversion" to other people. Especially since they may actually do more of the things I listed above than you and thus could be considered more "ethical" than you.

[S.M.Z.]

I avoid restaurants and eating out because it is almost impossible to find anything healthy to eat. Everything is either prepared with chemically-refined cooking oils, has high pesticide content because it is low-quality non-organics, is GMO, has ultra-processed chemical ingredients, etc. etc. Plus, restaraunts force taxpayers to subsidize their greedy, poverty-wage practices in a variety of ways (welfare/food-stamps, tipping, etc.). No thanks. I will prepare dinner myself and invite guests over, if I want a "social dining experience".

[Dune]

I disagree with you entirely.
You can't control what others choose to eat, and I would expect the same from them toward we.
Let him enjoy his meal and you enjoy your own
Dune